Growing up in the Church, I was taught that the worst thing one could be was a non-believer; that nothing was as tragic as an eternally doomed soul that condemned itself by rejecting God.
It is not that often when my spirits are raised by a column however this one did. I am pleased if people are walking away from the MAGA Church. That means it's power and reach is diminishing. It does not make me sad if people are honoring themselves by moving away from a church they do not find resonates with their values and toward something they feel is more authentic, including even atheism and agnosticism. It's healthy to think deeply, ponder and decide what you truly believe. So, smile if the MAGA Church is shrinking! Perhaps the true message of Jesus will find it's way to more hearts and minds.
The argument with the Bishop was over one missed tithe payment over the Christmas holidays. The first time I had disagreement with a Branch President, who accused me of gossiping., when I had only mentioned a concern to my husband. NO one else. Definitely thought the Patriarchal order was stacked against me. The Spiritual chips just kept stacking up or I became more aware. Seeing soooooooo many of my Church members follow trump is disheartening. I find myself on the porch steps of whether I want to stay; go inside; or not. Call me Spiritually weaken but liking myself better.
To be blunt, tell them to go f*** themselves, or maybe use a phrase more suited to your own preferred vocabulary ;) Either way, get out of there; it will not improve. As long as you subject yourself to their self-validated rule, they will carry on taking advantage of you. Sorry to be so blunt but I'm just trying to help <3
I belong to a Unitarian Universalist church with many former Christians. You might want to check out whether or not there is a church like that near you.
This resonates- I am a lifelong Catholic. I attend Mass weekly. I have been waiting for one sentence, one word condemning the actions of this regime against the poor, the hungry, the stranger …and I hear crickets. Why? I guess saying something ‘political’ might turn people away, decrease collections. But we can hear the story of the Good Samaritan, the woman at the well, the miracle of the fish/loaves- but we can’t comment on it in a socially current way. I lament weekly that Jesus’ message is so simple- feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, help the poor- but my parish can’t make the connection between the teachings and the atrocities of today . Talk about war? No, just say 3 words ‘pray for peace’- but don’t condemn the slaughter of over 160 children or a president who takes pride in killing. Someone said they are on the doorstep - for the last few weeks, I am too. Do I go in? Do I leave? It is hard- but I think I leave- there are faiths and groups that not only read the gospel but live it- they welcome all without judgement- ultimately that is what I was taught and I learned- and I see it in the new Pope’s teaching but I am not seeing it in my local Catholic parish- it is now up to me to find it elsewhere.
It really, really depends on the parish you are in. I’m not Catholic, but my ex is. I live in the most conservative archdiocese in the US. Some of the official diocesan statements are legitimately heretical. It is shocking. In contrast my ex has found very progressive parish priests in the most unlikely places. If there is a Spanish-language parish nearby their priest may be able to guide you. My experience is that the priests assigned to immigrant parishes often lean theologically progressive, regardless of the social values of parishioners.
Just today I delivered a revolutionary sermon about the blindness of so many people who keep quiet and impose on me to keep quiet about the huge injustices of this government, and the profiteering military industrial complex. I was told that the pulpit is not the place for such things.
I think that if we don't want Evangelicals to preach politics from the pulpit, we have to follow the same rules. I don't want Catholics urging that Biden not receive Communion because he made a decision they didn't like. I don't want preachers telling their congregations how to vote. What I do want is clergy who urge people to follow the Commandments, to live the words of Jesus, to be compassionate and generous toward people who are struggling, to treat others as equal human beings, and more.
I think we can get the message across with positive words and actions. The thing we should do is become good examples for others to follow. We cannot afford to alienate MAGAs or conservatives who are wavering in their support of Trump. By appealing to their better nature, we can bring others into the growing movement.
Others will disagree, I'm sure. But this is the approach I take. There are MAGAs in my family. But I won't cut them out of my life. Instead, we always maintain familial relationships because we will not let Donald Trump to have that much power over the bonds we have with friends and family. It may not work for everyone, but it does work for us.
I write Prayers of the Faithful every couple of months for my Catholic parish, along with three other people. In those prayers, we mention political issues, but we avoid anything overtly partisan because we don't believe in preaching politics from the pulpit. (If we don't want Evangelicals to do it, we have to follow the same rules.)
At the same time, we do address issues like poverty, immigration, detainment, war, and other topical issues by asking for prayers and assistance for people facing these problems. We have our food pantry, free showers for homeless people, assistance for refugees, transportation for kids to visit their fathers in prison, and many other things.
I am very proud of my parish. We also have activities with the Protestant, Muslim, and Jewish congregations in our city. Why? Because we believe that all of us are part of the same human family. And it doesn't matter if we don't belong to the same faith community. Or any at all.
As Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you."
I’m a life long Catholic baby boomer. I so remember Vatican II being implemented and the church opening to the laity and other denominations. The US bishops have systemically thrown the teachings of Vatican II out the door because in my opinion they were losing control over “their sheep”. I had to walk away when we were no longer able to be on the alter. The most critical piece of my leaving was many of the church hierarchy and people voted for trump. Their argument that he was against abortion. trump will say anything to any one and can pull it off — he is a con man. We see how much he and his regime cares about people; they care about power and money. I lay so much of this mess at the feet of the church who up until the right infiltrated was a church of immigrants and the poor.
Pope Leo is a welcome change. When Pope Francis died, I worried that the next pope would be reactionary and move back to conservatism. I was so happy that Leo is taking the work of Francis and magnifying it. Trump invited Pope Leo to the US to celebrate our 250th birthday. Leo turned down the invitation because he is spending time visiting refugees instead. When it came time for Archbishop Dolan (Trump’s buddy) to retire, Leo had the option to keep him in place. Instead he replaced him with someone known to help immigrants.
I recommend that you check out the Jesuit online magazine America Media. You will find many clergy and others who reflect our more moderate and liberal values. In fact, most of the comments are quite critical of Trump’s regime.
Thank you for your words. Having to walk away from the church was one of the hardest things I’ve done. I saw all the wonderful things that were done being dissolved. I was so happy with Pope Francis and then to have elected Pope Leo let me start to trust again. The accepting of the resignation of Dolan was huge and replacing him with Bishop Hicks continues to give me hope. Peace to you
It always stunned me that so called Christians voted for a divorced actor over a literal Sunday School teacher. That's when I started to question what our churches had become.
He left the Southern Baptists but was still involved with Maranatha Baptist Church. I attended his Sunday School class in 2016 when he was in his 90s. He still had faith. But he lived the teachings of Jesus.
I was born and bred a Catholic and tried hard to stay faithful to my religion. But as time went on, I found more and more of their teachings to be antithetical to my beliefs, how we're meant to love others like ourselves. About 20 years ago, I just couldn't pretend anymore, left and never looked back.
I left the Catholic church and tried many other faith communities. Or none at all. But I finally found a Catholic parish with good, solid social justice values, and I've stuck with it. If we women leave, we will have deprived the church of our light. I am greatly encouraged that Pope Leo is critical of Donald Trump and that he encourages our bishops and cardinals to follow his lead.
I think “pretending” is what many are doing now and are too afraid to leave. That’s the power of religious orgs. It’s a pretty good gig: tell people they will go to hell and not be saved if they leave. From a marketing standpoint, religious followers are easy to manipulate unfortunately, and many are happy to manipulate others for their own outcomes.
Pietistic strain of the Lutheran Church (the Norwegian version of the Swedish Covenant Church and Evangelical Free Church). Young Life. Bible School. Assemblies of God college for four quarters and a B.A. in Bible and a minor in Christian Education. Associated with "the Fellowship/Family." Mainline Lutheran Seminary (excellent and liberalizing education) and Lutheran pastor. (My family of origin, now all Baptists of various colors, know that I am going to hell and that felon47 is chosen by the deity they worship...actually they worship "the Bible.") I left the ordained ministry to pursue a medical education and retired as a physician after nearly four decades. Science; mystery; the natural world; relationships; the words and life of Jesus, as recorded; the broader "spiritual" teachers from various traditions...who often reflect the life and teachings of the Jesus I studied...these inform my understanding and, I pray, my life.
I have all but left "the church." I am coming to terms with the notion that I did the best with what I knew at the time and that being ashamed of what I stated as my beliefs and what I passed on to "my charges" is not helpful.
I can be thankful for the training in critical thinking and complex reasoning that I found at Luther Seminary (my favorite systematic theology professor did one sabbatical at Oxford attending lectures on new developments in field theory (physics) and the like.)
At any rate, I can look back at my path, try not to cringe, while being thankful for the relationships which helped me come to where I am today...and be aware of the grace that has saved me from the christianist bovine manure...
Raised in the Christian church. Have gone from a believer to agnostic to atheist. While I don’t discuss organized religion with my son, one day he spontaneously told me he believes there is a God but believes « the Bible is a book written by a bunch of men who wanted to control people ». I couldn’t agree more.
I’m a non believer ( in the God in the sky and Heaven or Hell storyline. I have a relationship with a higher power, but the above isn’t it. IF I was religious I would be nauseated by what these evangelicals are saying, doing, preaching.
My neighbor is religious and a Trump supporter. I SO want to say to her “ Jesus wasn’t white, ya know” or “ Is that what Jesus would say or do?
The hypocrisy of the WH females with their gold crosses displayed daily or DTJ hawking his Bible’s when he’s never read any of it and his evasive, ridiculous reponse of ‘ it’s private’ when asked to for his favorite quote.
In these times, I kind of wish I was a believer, only so I could ‘pray’ that all these liars and cheats would burn in hell!
As a person who was raised Jewish, but who was exposed to Christianity from an early age, it has always seemed to me that the notion that only Christians are "saved" and that everyone who is not goes to Hell no matter how good and virtuous they may be, was an obnoxious belief.
Many undocumented immigrants arriving in America did so praying to God in the name of Jesus. Arriving in the USA brought forth their highest of thanksgvings for God's answered prayers. So what happens to their faith as "Christian America" arrests them, sends them to our for profit prisons, and back to poverty or death? How many of us would retain our faith in Jesus after all this?
When the Evangelicals fell in behind 45 and hijacked Christianity as I knew it, I stopped calling myself a Christian. I now just say I am a follower of Jesus.
This is very personal and if there is a way to remove my name from this comment, I would appreciate it. My experience was that bad. I am still estranged from most of my family even 20 years after the worst of it. If you, the reader, have experienced religious abuse, you should probably stop reading now.
I was raised by closet Calvinists. Church on Sunday, youth group on Wednesday, and choir rehearsals were mandatory. My father was an ordained Presbyterian minister. Apparently he was very good at what he did. I wouldn’t know. I am a perfect example of a PK who didn’t turn out well.
I was born with a birth defect that required surgical correction. My parents hid this from everyone—including me. (In my 40s I finally realized that when my mother spoke of the Old Testament idea of the sins of the parents affecting children, she actually believed it.) In early adulthood I was very severely ill for a year. It may have sparked the severe mental illness that had me in and out of psychiatric units until a medication that actually worked came along. My father had a literal fit blaming me for my illness. I could not be discharged from my first hospitalization until arrangements were made for me to leave the state for my safety.
A few years later I had the audacity to leave a marriage that was failing under the stress of my illness. I begin a relationship with a woman that has now lasted 23 years. When my father learned of this his behavior was entirely beyond the pale. I had needed a place to live when my partner was called up to military active duty. I arrived to face emotional and physical abuse. My father tried to have me committed. When that didn’t work, he tried to have me arrested. He threw me out on the street with only the clothes on my back. Fortunately I had a police escort. Then he used his position as a member of the presbytery to enlist others in attacking me. He called in favors in an attempt to have my partner thrown out of the army. I am still in treatment for PTSD.
My mother was a Sunday School teacher, a deacon and now an elder. She was a regular delegate to the annual General Assembly meetings during the years the Presbyterians made an international spectacle of themselves over gay people in the church. Near the end of that decade, she once spoke up in favor of accepting LGBTQ people. She described the icy reception to her comment and how no one would make eye contact with her afterwords, much less speak to her. It was horrible for her, but I doubt she ever considered how it affected me.
It is amazing that any LGBTQ people stayed at all even after the General Assembly finally voted for acceptance. I couldn’t have done so even if I wanted to. I struggle with illness, marginalization, poverty, abuse and homelessness. One might wish that I could have received support from the church, but that is not how ‘mission’ works. The church mission committee (which my mother chaired for a while) decides how to use their money to help people who are far away or at least as different from them as possible. Of course, they must be ‘deserving.’ Mission trips to somewhere foreign are popular with wealthier congregations. For me, my mother’s support is in the form of ‘thoughts and prayers’ …and the occasional check.
Most Presbyterians are not evangelical although there is a portion of the church that is. But it is the underlying Calvinism that is a problem. When someone falls outside of the recipe for living the life of the presumed Elect it can get pretty ugly. The quicker they leave, the better. Everyone I know who has run afoul of Calvinist ideas has had to leave. When I read the Book of Common Order for myself I was shocked that 17th century ideas are still church dogma.
Probably the majority of church members have no idea what the Book of Common Order actually says, but the ideas, beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors show up every day. There is a clear line between those who are insiders and those who are not. What I and many others experienced in private has an effect on other members of a congregation even if they are unaware of it. They know something is wrong but would never think of admitting it to themselves.
Unlike many evangelicals, Presbyterians have no concept of being ‘born again’ or ‘saved.’ They practice infant baptism because whatever fate you have was assigned before you were born and nothing that you do in life will really change that. The sacrament of baptism is essentially a hedge against it until everyone knows how you turn out.
And they wonder why, as one of the smallest US denominations, their numbers are declining. The legacy of John Calvin is toxic.
I'm so sorry. Some humans can be awful, regardless of their spiritual beliefs. I hope you are recovering and happy. My mother used to say that hatred and anger are like acids that destroy the container they're in. It was her way of telling us to move beyond the bad things in life and to find whatever works for us. I wish you peace.
I am a pastor and I am ready to quit because of the hypocrisy of the people in the pews. Not all of them, but the majority only want the "pacifier-type" Christianity where they are loved unconditionally because they worship God, but do not share the values or the WAY of Jesus with the world.
The only way this gets better is to name the problem, which is dispensational theology. It’s not a MAGA church problem, it’s what underpins the MAGA church, which is dispensationalism.
Dispensationalism presents itself as the most rigorously biblical theology — the one that “takes the Bible literally.” But its actual effect is to inoculate its adherents against the Bible’s most demanding content. Jesus’s teachings on wealth, enemy love, peacemaking, and the Kingdom become either future-tense obligations or spiritual metaphors, never present-tense commands to be obeyed now. The system that claims most loudly to honor Scripture has built the most sophisticated architecture for avoiding what Scripture most clearly requires.
My take is that many, maybe most people in denominations and congregations that adhere to dispensationalism don’t know that the Sermon on the Mount, for example, does not apply to them.
They have been misled.
The solution begins with clarifying for everyone exactly what dispensationalism believes and teaches.
What you say is exactly how my husband and I are feeling! If today's Christianity is what we see from MAGA Christians, then we want no part of that!
It is not that often when my spirits are raised by a column however this one did. I am pleased if people are walking away from the MAGA Church. That means it's power and reach is diminishing. It does not make me sad if people are honoring themselves by moving away from a church they do not find resonates with their values and toward something they feel is more authentic, including even atheism and agnosticism. It's healthy to think deeply, ponder and decide what you truly believe. So, smile if the MAGA Church is shrinking! Perhaps the true message of Jesus will find it's way to more hearts and minds.
The argument with the Bishop was over one missed tithe payment over the Christmas holidays. The first time I had disagreement with a Branch President, who accused me of gossiping., when I had only mentioned a concern to my husband. NO one else. Definitely thought the Patriarchal order was stacked against me. The Spiritual chips just kept stacking up or I became more aware. Seeing soooooooo many of my Church members follow trump is disheartening. I find myself on the porch steps of whether I want to stay; go inside; or not. Call me Spiritually weaken but liking myself better.
To be blunt, tell them to go f*** themselves, or maybe use a phrase more suited to your own preferred vocabulary ;) Either way, get out of there; it will not improve. As long as you subject yourself to their self-validated rule, they will carry on taking advantage of you. Sorry to be so blunt but I'm just trying to help <3
I belong to a Unitarian Universalist church with many former Christians. You might want to check out whether or not there is a church like that near you.
This resonates- I am a lifelong Catholic. I attend Mass weekly. I have been waiting for one sentence, one word condemning the actions of this regime against the poor, the hungry, the stranger …and I hear crickets. Why? I guess saying something ‘political’ might turn people away, decrease collections. But we can hear the story of the Good Samaritan, the woman at the well, the miracle of the fish/loaves- but we can’t comment on it in a socially current way. I lament weekly that Jesus’ message is so simple- feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, help the poor- but my parish can’t make the connection between the teachings and the atrocities of today . Talk about war? No, just say 3 words ‘pray for peace’- but don’t condemn the slaughter of over 160 children or a president who takes pride in killing. Someone said they are on the doorstep - for the last few weeks, I am too. Do I go in? Do I leave? It is hard- but I think I leave- there are faiths and groups that not only read the gospel but live it- they welcome all without judgement- ultimately that is what I was taught and I learned- and I see it in the new Pope’s teaching but I am not seeing it in my local Catholic parish- it is now up to me to find it elsewhere.
It really, really depends on the parish you are in. I’m not Catholic, but my ex is. I live in the most conservative archdiocese in the US. Some of the official diocesan statements are legitimately heretical. It is shocking. In contrast my ex has found very progressive parish priests in the most unlikely places. If there is a Spanish-language parish nearby their priest may be able to guide you. My experience is that the priests assigned to immigrant parishes often lean theologically progressive, regardless of the social values of parishioners.
Thank you for those words. If you don't like the parish you're in, then find one where you fit. That's what I did.
Just today I delivered a revolutionary sermon about the blindness of so many people who keep quiet and impose on me to keep quiet about the huge injustices of this government, and the profiteering military industrial complex. I was told that the pulpit is not the place for such things.
I second what Nick said. The pulpit is exactly the place for that—unfortunately it also threatens many people and they get mad.
I'm OK with mad! The next step would be to have a conversation with deep listening where the mad person feels safe to share what they are mad about.
Thank you for speaking out- I would argue and agree with you that the pulpit is exactly where this message should come from!
I think that if we don't want Evangelicals to preach politics from the pulpit, we have to follow the same rules. I don't want Catholics urging that Biden not receive Communion because he made a decision they didn't like. I don't want preachers telling their congregations how to vote. What I do want is clergy who urge people to follow the Commandments, to live the words of Jesus, to be compassionate and generous toward people who are struggling, to treat others as equal human beings, and more.
I think we can get the message across with positive words and actions. The thing we should do is become good examples for others to follow. We cannot afford to alienate MAGAs or conservatives who are wavering in their support of Trump. By appealing to their better nature, we can bring others into the growing movement.
Others will disagree, I'm sure. But this is the approach I take. There are MAGAs in my family. But I won't cut them out of my life. Instead, we always maintain familial relationships because we will not let Donald Trump to have that much power over the bonds we have with friends and family. It may not work for everyone, but it does work for us.
I write Prayers of the Faithful every couple of months for my Catholic parish, along with three other people. In those prayers, we mention political issues, but we avoid anything overtly partisan because we don't believe in preaching politics from the pulpit. (If we don't want Evangelicals to do it, we have to follow the same rules.)
At the same time, we do address issues like poverty, immigration, detainment, war, and other topical issues by asking for prayers and assistance for people facing these problems. We have our food pantry, free showers for homeless people, assistance for refugees, transportation for kids to visit their fathers in prison, and many other things.
I am very proud of my parish. We also have activities with the Protestant, Muslim, and Jewish congregations in our city. Why? Because we believe that all of us are part of the same human family. And it doesn't matter if we don't belong to the same faith community. Or any at all.
As Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you."
I’m a life long Catholic baby boomer. I so remember Vatican II being implemented and the church opening to the laity and other denominations. The US bishops have systemically thrown the teachings of Vatican II out the door because in my opinion they were losing control over “their sheep”. I had to walk away when we were no longer able to be on the alter. The most critical piece of my leaving was many of the church hierarchy and people voted for trump. Their argument that he was against abortion. trump will say anything to any one and can pull it off — he is a con man. We see how much he and his regime cares about people; they care about power and money. I lay so much of this mess at the feet of the church who up until the right infiltrated was a church of immigrants and the poor.
Pope Leo is a welcome change. When Pope Francis died, I worried that the next pope would be reactionary and move back to conservatism. I was so happy that Leo is taking the work of Francis and magnifying it. Trump invited Pope Leo to the US to celebrate our 250th birthday. Leo turned down the invitation because he is spending time visiting refugees instead. When it came time for Archbishop Dolan (Trump’s buddy) to retire, Leo had the option to keep him in place. Instead he replaced him with someone known to help immigrants.
I recommend that you check out the Jesuit online magazine America Media. You will find many clergy and others who reflect our more moderate and liberal values. In fact, most of the comments are quite critical of Trump’s regime.
Thank you for your words. Having to walk away from the church was one of the hardest things I’ve done. I saw all the wonderful things that were done being dissolved. I was so happy with Pope Francis and then to have elected Pope Leo let me start to trust again. The accepting of the resignation of Dolan was huge and replacing him with Bishop Hicks continues to give me hope. Peace to you
Jimmy Carter was a real Christian and a genuinely good man. Why can’t we have someone like him again?
It always stunned me that so called Christians voted for a divorced actor over a literal Sunday School teacher. That's when I started to question what our churches had become.
And before he died, he publicly left his church.
He left the Southern Baptists but was still involved with Maranatha Baptist Church. I attended his Sunday School class in 2016 when he was in his 90s. He still had faith. But he lived the teachings of Jesus.
Me too! It was so awesome to be in his Sunday school class.
I was born and bred a Catholic and tried hard to stay faithful to my religion. But as time went on, I found more and more of their teachings to be antithetical to my beliefs, how we're meant to love others like ourselves. About 20 years ago, I just couldn't pretend anymore, left and never looked back.
I left the Catholic church and tried many other faith communities. Or none at all. But I finally found a Catholic parish with good, solid social justice values, and I've stuck with it. If we women leave, we will have deprived the church of our light. I am greatly encouraged that Pope Leo is critical of Donald Trump and that he encourages our bishops and cardinals to follow his lead.
I think “pretending” is what many are doing now and are too afraid to leave. That’s the power of religious orgs. It’s a pretty good gig: tell people they will go to hell and not be saved if they leave. From a marketing standpoint, religious followers are easy to manipulate unfortunately, and many are happy to manipulate others for their own outcomes.
Yes, some are like that. It’s the same Evangelical marketing strategy that Trump imitated.
Pietistic strain of the Lutheran Church (the Norwegian version of the Swedish Covenant Church and Evangelical Free Church). Young Life. Bible School. Assemblies of God college for four quarters and a B.A. in Bible and a minor in Christian Education. Associated with "the Fellowship/Family." Mainline Lutheran Seminary (excellent and liberalizing education) and Lutheran pastor. (My family of origin, now all Baptists of various colors, know that I am going to hell and that felon47 is chosen by the deity they worship...actually they worship "the Bible.") I left the ordained ministry to pursue a medical education and retired as a physician after nearly four decades. Science; mystery; the natural world; relationships; the words and life of Jesus, as recorded; the broader "spiritual" teachers from various traditions...who often reflect the life and teachings of the Jesus I studied...these inform my understanding and, I pray, my life.
I have all but left "the church." I am coming to terms with the notion that I did the best with what I knew at the time and that being ashamed of what I stated as my beliefs and what I passed on to "my charges" is not helpful.
I can be thankful for the training in critical thinking and complex reasoning that I found at Luther Seminary (my favorite systematic theology professor did one sabbatical at Oxford attending lectures on new developments in field theory (physics) and the like.)
At any rate, I can look back at my path, try not to cringe, while being thankful for the relationships which helped me come to where I am today...and be aware of the grace that has saved me from the christianist bovine manure...
Thank you for sharing your story. very powerful! I see Jesus in the same way. I am unable to stand the bovine manure anymore.
Raised in the Christian church. Have gone from a believer to agnostic to atheist. While I don’t discuss organized religion with my son, one day he spontaneously told me he believes there is a God but believes « the Bible is a book written by a bunch of men who wanted to control people ». I couldn’t agree more.
Interesting. I found this interesting, too--an article on patriarchy/Epstein files: https://substack.com/home/post/p-188678798
I’m a non believer ( in the God in the sky and Heaven or Hell storyline. I have a relationship with a higher power, but the above isn’t it. IF I was religious I would be nauseated by what these evangelicals are saying, doing, preaching.
My neighbor is religious and a Trump supporter. I SO want to say to her “ Jesus wasn’t white, ya know” or “ Is that what Jesus would say or do?
The hypocrisy of the WH females with their gold crosses displayed daily or DTJ hawking his Bible’s when he’s never read any of it and his evasive, ridiculous reponse of ‘ it’s private’ when asked to for his favorite quote.
In these times, I kind of wish I was a believer, only so I could ‘pray’ that all these liars and cheats would burn in hell!
In the most recent presidential election 80 percent of evangelicals voted for Trump, a man who lies constantly and is incredibly greedy.
As a person who was raised Jewish, but who was exposed to Christianity from an early age, it has always seemed to me that the notion that only Christians are "saved" and that everyone who is not goes to Hell no matter how good and virtuous they may be, was an obnoxious belief.
As a person who was raised Christian but exposed to Judaism, I heartily agree with you.
Many undocumented immigrants arriving in America did so praying to God in the name of Jesus. Arriving in the USA brought forth their highest of thanksgvings for God's answered prayers. So what happens to their faith as "Christian America" arrests them, sends them to our for profit prisons, and back to poverty or death? How many of us would retain our faith in Jesus after all this?
When the Evangelicals fell in behind 45 and hijacked Christianity as I knew it, I stopped calling myself a Christian. I now just say I am a follower of Jesus.
This is very personal and if there is a way to remove my name from this comment, I would appreciate it. My experience was that bad. I am still estranged from most of my family even 20 years after the worst of it. If you, the reader, have experienced religious abuse, you should probably stop reading now.
I was raised by closet Calvinists. Church on Sunday, youth group on Wednesday, and choir rehearsals were mandatory. My father was an ordained Presbyterian minister. Apparently he was very good at what he did. I wouldn’t know. I am a perfect example of a PK who didn’t turn out well.
I was born with a birth defect that required surgical correction. My parents hid this from everyone—including me. (In my 40s I finally realized that when my mother spoke of the Old Testament idea of the sins of the parents affecting children, she actually believed it.) In early adulthood I was very severely ill for a year. It may have sparked the severe mental illness that had me in and out of psychiatric units until a medication that actually worked came along. My father had a literal fit blaming me for my illness. I could not be discharged from my first hospitalization until arrangements were made for me to leave the state for my safety.
A few years later I had the audacity to leave a marriage that was failing under the stress of my illness. I begin a relationship with a woman that has now lasted 23 years. When my father learned of this his behavior was entirely beyond the pale. I had needed a place to live when my partner was called up to military active duty. I arrived to face emotional and physical abuse. My father tried to have me committed. When that didn’t work, he tried to have me arrested. He threw me out on the street with only the clothes on my back. Fortunately I had a police escort. Then he used his position as a member of the presbytery to enlist others in attacking me. He called in favors in an attempt to have my partner thrown out of the army. I am still in treatment for PTSD.
My mother was a Sunday School teacher, a deacon and now an elder. She was a regular delegate to the annual General Assembly meetings during the years the Presbyterians made an international spectacle of themselves over gay people in the church. Near the end of that decade, she once spoke up in favor of accepting LGBTQ people. She described the icy reception to her comment and how no one would make eye contact with her afterwords, much less speak to her. It was horrible for her, but I doubt she ever considered how it affected me.
It is amazing that any LGBTQ people stayed at all even after the General Assembly finally voted for acceptance. I couldn’t have done so even if I wanted to. I struggle with illness, marginalization, poverty, abuse and homelessness. One might wish that I could have received support from the church, but that is not how ‘mission’ works. The church mission committee (which my mother chaired for a while) decides how to use their money to help people who are far away or at least as different from them as possible. Of course, they must be ‘deserving.’ Mission trips to somewhere foreign are popular with wealthier congregations. For me, my mother’s support is in the form of ‘thoughts and prayers’ …and the occasional check.
Most Presbyterians are not evangelical although there is a portion of the church that is. But it is the underlying Calvinism that is a problem. When someone falls outside of the recipe for living the life of the presumed Elect it can get pretty ugly. The quicker they leave, the better. Everyone I know who has run afoul of Calvinist ideas has had to leave. When I read the Book of Common Order for myself I was shocked that 17th century ideas are still church dogma.
Probably the majority of church members have no idea what the Book of Common Order actually says, but the ideas, beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors show up every day. There is a clear line between those who are insiders and those who are not. What I and many others experienced in private has an effect on other members of a congregation even if they are unaware of it. They know something is wrong but would never think of admitting it to themselves.
Unlike many evangelicals, Presbyterians have no concept of being ‘born again’ or ‘saved.’ They practice infant baptism because whatever fate you have was assigned before you were born and nothing that you do in life will really change that. The sacrament of baptism is essentially a hedge against it until everyone knows how you turn out.
And they wonder why, as one of the smallest US denominations, their numbers are declining. The legacy of John Calvin is toxic.
I am so sorry for your suffering. I consider hypocrites, of all forms, to be the worst of the worst.
I'm so sorry. Some humans can be awful, regardless of their spiritual beliefs. I hope you are recovering and happy. My mother used to say that hatred and anger are like acids that destroy the container they're in. It was her way of telling us to move beyond the bad things in life and to find whatever works for us. I wish you peace.
My heart goes out to you. Keep up the good fight.
I am a pastor and I am ready to quit because of the hypocrisy of the people in the pews. Not all of them, but the majority only want the "pacifier-type" Christianity where they are loved unconditionally because they worship God, but do not share the values or the WAY of Jesus with the world.
The only way this gets better is to name the problem, which is dispensational theology. It’s not a MAGA church problem, it’s what underpins the MAGA church, which is dispensationalism.
Dispensationalism presents itself as the most rigorously biblical theology — the one that “takes the Bible literally.” But its actual effect is to inoculate its adherents against the Bible’s most demanding content. Jesus’s teachings on wealth, enemy love, peacemaking, and the Kingdom become either future-tense obligations or spiritual metaphors, never present-tense commands to be obeyed now. The system that claims most loudly to honor Scripture has built the most sophisticated architecture for avoiding what Scripture most clearly requires.
Yes. I just recounted my own horrors with Calvinism. These ideas have unfortunately been with us a very long time.
My take is that many, maybe most people in denominations and congregations that adhere to dispensationalism don’t know that the Sermon on the Mount, for example, does not apply to them.
They have been misled.
The solution begins with clarifying for everyone exactly what dispensationalism believes and teaches.