Another good example of getting it wrong are some Catholics, or anyone else actually, that believe abortion is murder under any circumstances. Especially the ones that voted for this reason only & therefore chose the creep we got in our White House.
Hmmm... Religion versus Faith. Always a tricky question. I feel that anyone can have great Faith without religion, and that many people who have great Religion are a little weak on the Faith part.
That is not to say that having religion takes away from your faith; in many instances for centuries, religion has provided the basis for faith. A story as to where the whole reasoning behind faith comes from. Old Testament stories of brave peoples standing up for beliefs, also for subjecting those who did not share that belief. But, basically having a belief. Then we get the beautiful New Testament which is when Jesus the Christ comes to us and teaches us the true religion of love and forgiveness and acceptance and inclusion.
Much of "religion" has used their laws and tenets to hurt and exclude and demonize others who do not follow that particular ideology. And many without a formal "religion" have heard the teachings and read of Jesus's life and have Faith in his teachings and follow those words without belonging to a specific religion.
I was raised Catholic, the Roman variety, and learned of the stories that are the basis of my Faith from that religion. And I also came to understand, as I grew and studied my, religion that many of its laws and rules and theology were made by men centuries ago and could probably use a good rethinking today. But the Faith I found and the lessons of Christs life are still love, forgiveness, acceptance and inclusion and that is the faith centered religion I follow.
Great Post. Misguided religious people and organizations do tremendous damage. I suspect Jesus would be horrified. Do the majority of religious people read what Jesus advised? We are to love God and love others (all others) as ourselves. It's simple. Hard to do, but simple to understand.
Most religious people get things wrong because they blindly believe that what some preacher tells them is what is absolutely true. And unless you've been in the same church under the same preacher your entire life, you've certainly heard some conflicting interpretations. That should be a clue. They're convinced by those in power that it's not possible to understand via serious study, critical thinking and the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. And they forget that the Bible was written in a specific time, culture, and language to specific people dealing with specific issues. It doesn't often translate neatly. And translators often had their own biases which impacted their translations. And all too often it's read with the intent of validating presuppositions and prejudices in order to be used as a weapon.
I can vouch as someone who is multilingual that it is impossible to translate a text perfectly. It's not just words. Text carries subtlety, connotations, culture, shared understandings, different word meanings that have shifted over time, and much more. Anyone who thinks they totally get a translated text is fooling themselves.
You've hit the nail on the head with perfect aim! There is also this:
Purposefully rewriting things -- history and Biblical texts -- in order to control the populace. E.g., nix on believing in reincarnation as of the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, as well as Mary Magdalene being transmogrified into a prostitute to disempower her. These 2 things in particular meant:
(1) If you only have one life, well then, you'd better behave like we tell you to or you'll be eternally damned -- nope, no second chances!
(2) Nixing Mary Magdalene's importance in Jesus's life and demoting her to "sinner woman" was part of disempowering ALL women and removing any status they held in their societies. This went hand-in-hand with banning all belief in the Great Goddess, in her many forms and under her various names, and was key in the transference of all power to men. The cultures all around the Mediterranean Sea had been peaceful -- well, maybe excluding Egypt (I've never been entirely clear how Egypt fit into this) -- and Great Goddess worshipping, and in these cultures women and men were equal, solutions were found to get along with everybody rather than make war, and the earth and nature were revered and caretaking nature was of great importance. This is an ultra-simplified description, but essentially it.
When patriarchal tribes swept into the Mediterranean areas, they found it easy to conquer these peaceful peoples, and to force their beliefs on them upon threat of death for anybody resisting the takeover. Thus began patriarchal religions' dominance around the Mediterranean. Great Goddesses such as Artemis / Diana were demoted to lesser statures, and worship was frowned upon. (The bible says this, remember?) Mary Magdalene AND the Virgin Mary were seen as threats to patriarchal domination because they held so much importance to new Christian communities, so revering them was discouraged or prohibited. Mary Magdalene in particular was a threat because Jesus clearly cared for and shared much with her, so she was targeted for discrediting in the Council of Nicaea.
And so history shifted... From a time of peace, equality between women and men and among different peoples, egalitarian sharing of cultures' bounties (no or very little historically discernable classism -- all were cared for and shared with), and respecting and caretaking the planet... to a time of strife and war, of men dominating women, of women being systematically disempowered and reduced to chattel and servants whereas before they'd held positions of equality and respect within their communities, the earth being shredded and pillaged for whatever profit could be made by the ransackers.
Sorry about kind of stumbling about to find my words tonight -- didn't sleep well last night and am more than a bit not at my best. Hope I was able to communicate well enough...
I'd like to conclude by saying that the Great Goddess worshipping cultures smack(ed) of democratic socialism. And I'd think that Bernie and AOC would've approved. I know I do.
We have successfully created a god in our own image when that god loves all the people we love, hates all the people we hate, grants admittance to Heaven all those who happen to agree with we believe, and damns to an eternity in Hell all those who believe differently from us.
I’m having trouble right now with people who refuse to see what is going on and are defending the due process violations because “they’re illegal, Suzanne.” Are you kidding me? You are older than I am and don’t know that EVERYONE gets due process. Didn’t all the cop shows teach you anything? Don’t act stupid! Yeah. I’m having a hard time, but I am working on it. Praying for forgiveness. I’m a lot more worried about going to Hell than they are, and I am not sure I even believe there is a Hell not of this earth. Not taking chances. Not understanding why they are.
I see a lot of people of many religions believing their way is the only way and condemning anyone who does not believe as they do. I see these same people turn a blind eye to violence committed against those who believe differently because they feel that violence is in the name of God. There is no violence the way I see it “in the name of God”. I see religious people who verbally persecute those who are different than they are just because of those differences.
I believe in being loving, kind and compassionate whether one is religious or not, whether one believes the same as another or not. We are here to make the world better than we found it. We are in a world of people who are different than we are to learn to work together with them, to accept them, to love them. I believe the world would not be filled with diversity in everything if we were not meant to learn to live in peace with that diversity.
I think those who are religious need to be more accepting of those who are different than them or those who believe differently than they do.
I think the religious world and the secular world need to find ways to work together, with kindness, love and compassion for one another.
In this country and in this world. Love, kindness and compassion must be the way or we are going to lose and or destroy everything we believe in.
The religious people I have admired most are the quiet ones who use their faith as a buttress, for themselves and others, rather than as a cudgel demanding submission.
It's funny - I used the exact same phrase in my latest post - that those who celebrate death as part of a Divine plan have "lost the plot" in focusing on their interpretation of prophecy (talking about the Middle East). I think religious people get it wrong when assuming they understand all there is to know about that which is Infinite. I've talked to hundreds of people about their personal spirituality through my Spiritual Geography workshops and sessions. The common factor, as you know and so eloquently describe, is love - whether the person finds that love in religion, in nature, or exploring more "woo" aspects of spirituality. There's always more we don't know than what we do, but Love is the common thread.
Amen. Read your book a couple years ago I think and thought yeah this is right. The realty is that Jesus is far too radical (gets at the root of things) than a lot of current religious people are comfortable with. I once told a group that Jesus is woke and that is a fact. I often believe that if Jesus walked into a lot of our churches today, he would be quickly escorted out. Jesus loves all of us and if Jesus does not challenge our myopia then we do not see him clearly. Thanks John for having the courage to say what needs to be said.
John - I do believe that if we follow Jesus' guidelines, including the Beatitudes, we will be on the right track. However, if those who profess to be followers of Jesus and espouse violence, exclusion, demonize others, lie,cheat, and steal then they're on the wrong track.
Historically I believe there have been more wars over religious beliefs than any other cause and I have never felt comfortable in organized religious environments. I prefer to have my own personal relationship with the
G-d of my understanding without anyone else dictating to me what that should feel like or look like for me or for anyone else. Most of the world religions I have briefly studied basically try to teach the same moral principles. Sadly, some of them seem to have gotten twisted to fit political ideology and are reverting back to extremism. If Jesus showed up now and tried to reason with ICE he would be deported in a heartbeat without any papers or way to help him. How many Angels are out there right now having that happen to them. Yes, I do believe that Angels walk amongst us.
I come at this set of issues from the point of view of Process Theology, which is rooted in the cosmology of Alfred North Whitehead's Process Philosophy. One of the striking features of the theology is that, for humans (and likely a great many other animal species) God's aim is persuasive, a lure, but is not controlling. For other levels of reality, where we assume continuity of solid features, God's aim is controlling. (The basic unit of reality is what he calls an actual occasion & they range from simple, like our body or a rock, to complex, such as our psyche.) We have a measure of free will and God is not trying to teach anything by punishing us. God is fully inclusive, regardless of any conditions. The fundamental principle of the universe is creativity which characterizes all of reality including God. The nice thing about Whitehead and Process Philosophy is that ANW was one of the leading mathematicians and understood Einsteins' theory of relativity. Process Thought (including any theology developed using his cosmology) seeks to cover all of reality, including what we know from classical physics and science in general but also more difficult topics such as non-mediated causality.
BTW, I once had an extended conversation with a once-religious man who was, I decided, a born-again atheist. When I told him that the God he didn't believe in, he accused me of playing word games; he could not accept that God meant anything except the iron-fisted God waiting to either punish us or reward us with unlimited gifts (if we but believe hard enough). God is not a Superman.
My personal religion seems to be founded on Micah 6:8 about humility, which has been a very useful North Star in determining what's important and what's less so.
A good example of getting it wrong is the Southern Baptist Convention. They voted as a group to try to get the right of gay marriage overturned.
Someone else's marriage, whether straight or gay, is really none of their business. Period.
They may do as they please in their own lives. But, they have no say and no place to interfere in the lives and marriages of anyone else.
Will they ever learn???????
Another good example of getting it wrong are some Catholics, or anyone else actually, that believe abortion is murder under any circumstances. Especially the ones that voted for this reason only & therefore chose the creep we got in our White House.
Southern Baptists......Hahahaha Hahahaha Hahahaha 😆 😂 🤣 😅 😜
Hmmm... Religion versus Faith. Always a tricky question. I feel that anyone can have great Faith without religion, and that many people who have great Religion are a little weak on the Faith part.
That is not to say that having religion takes away from your faith; in many instances for centuries, religion has provided the basis for faith. A story as to where the whole reasoning behind faith comes from. Old Testament stories of brave peoples standing up for beliefs, also for subjecting those who did not share that belief. But, basically having a belief. Then we get the beautiful New Testament which is when Jesus the Christ comes to us and teaches us the true religion of love and forgiveness and acceptance and inclusion.
Much of "religion" has used their laws and tenets to hurt and exclude and demonize others who do not follow that particular ideology. And many without a formal "religion" have heard the teachings and read of Jesus's life and have Faith in his teachings and follow those words without belonging to a specific religion.
I was raised Catholic, the Roman variety, and learned of the stories that are the basis of my Faith from that religion. And I also came to understand, as I grew and studied my, religion that many of its laws and rules and theology were made by men centuries ago and could probably use a good rethinking today. But the Faith I found and the lessons of Christs life are still love, forgiveness, acceptance and inclusion and that is the faith centered religion I follow.
WELL SAID!!! Thank you.
(btw -- It's tenets, not tenants -- dang that auto correct! I've seen some terrific and even hilarious boo-boos caused by that!)
Thanks!! I have to learn to proof read before I hit enter.
It's all good -- just hit edit and fix.
btw -- me, too -- I've caught my own dang self making some real nitwit boo-boos.
Great Post. Misguided religious people and organizations do tremendous damage. I suspect Jesus would be horrified. Do the majority of religious people read what Jesus advised? We are to love God and love others (all others) as ourselves. It's simple. Hard to do, but simple to understand.
Most religious people get things wrong because they blindly believe that what some preacher tells them is what is absolutely true. And unless you've been in the same church under the same preacher your entire life, you've certainly heard some conflicting interpretations. That should be a clue. They're convinced by those in power that it's not possible to understand via serious study, critical thinking and the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. And they forget that the Bible was written in a specific time, culture, and language to specific people dealing with specific issues. It doesn't often translate neatly. And translators often had their own biases which impacted their translations. And all too often it's read with the intent of validating presuppositions and prejudices in order to be used as a weapon.
I can vouch as someone who is multilingual that it is impossible to translate a text perfectly. It's not just words. Text carries subtlety, connotations, culture, shared understandings, different word meanings that have shifted over time, and much more. Anyone who thinks they totally get a translated text is fooling themselves.
You've hit the nail on the head with perfect aim! There is also this:
Purposefully rewriting things -- history and Biblical texts -- in order to control the populace. E.g., nix on believing in reincarnation as of the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, as well as Mary Magdalene being transmogrified into a prostitute to disempower her. These 2 things in particular meant:
(1) If you only have one life, well then, you'd better behave like we tell you to or you'll be eternally damned -- nope, no second chances!
(2) Nixing Mary Magdalene's importance in Jesus's life and demoting her to "sinner woman" was part of disempowering ALL women and removing any status they held in their societies. This went hand-in-hand with banning all belief in the Great Goddess, in her many forms and under her various names, and was key in the transference of all power to men. The cultures all around the Mediterranean Sea had been peaceful -- well, maybe excluding Egypt (I've never been entirely clear how Egypt fit into this) -- and Great Goddess worshipping, and in these cultures women and men were equal, solutions were found to get along with everybody rather than make war, and the earth and nature were revered and caretaking nature was of great importance. This is an ultra-simplified description, but essentially it.
When patriarchal tribes swept into the Mediterranean areas, they found it easy to conquer these peaceful peoples, and to force their beliefs on them upon threat of death for anybody resisting the takeover. Thus began patriarchal religions' dominance around the Mediterranean. Great Goddesses such as Artemis / Diana were demoted to lesser statures, and worship was frowned upon. (The bible says this, remember?) Mary Magdalene AND the Virgin Mary were seen as threats to patriarchal domination because they held so much importance to new Christian communities, so revering them was discouraged or prohibited. Mary Magdalene in particular was a threat because Jesus clearly cared for and shared much with her, so she was targeted for discrediting in the Council of Nicaea.
And so history shifted... From a time of peace, equality between women and men and among different peoples, egalitarian sharing of cultures' bounties (no or very little historically discernable classism -- all were cared for and shared with), and respecting and caretaking the planet... to a time of strife and war, of men dominating women, of women being systematically disempowered and reduced to chattel and servants whereas before they'd held positions of equality and respect within their communities, the earth being shredded and pillaged for whatever profit could be made by the ransackers.
And here we are. *sigh*
Sorry about kind of stumbling about to find my words tonight -- didn't sleep well last night and am more than a bit not at my best. Hope I was able to communicate well enough...
I'd like to conclude by saying that the Great Goddess worshipping cultures smack(ed) of democratic socialism. And I'd think that Bernie and AOC would've approved. I know I do.
I think they would both agree and I know that I do.
We have successfully created a god in our own image when that god loves all the people we love, hates all the people we hate, grants admittance to Heaven all those who happen to agree with we believe, and damns to an eternity in Hell all those who believe differently from us.
Precisely.
I feel many get it wrong when they become the judge of others…
I’m having trouble right now with people who refuse to see what is going on and are defending the due process violations because “they’re illegal, Suzanne.” Are you kidding me? You are older than I am and don’t know that EVERYONE gets due process. Didn’t all the cop shows teach you anything? Don’t act stupid! Yeah. I’m having a hard time, but I am working on it. Praying for forgiveness. I’m a lot more worried about going to Hell than they are, and I am not sure I even believe there is a Hell not of this earth. Not taking chances. Not understanding why they are.
Could religious people please stop pushing to save the rest us from their own fears.
Oh that is a brilliant statement Diane. Food for thought. Thank you!
I see a lot of people of many religions believing their way is the only way and condemning anyone who does not believe as they do. I see these same people turn a blind eye to violence committed against those who believe differently because they feel that violence is in the name of God. There is no violence the way I see it “in the name of God”. I see religious people who verbally persecute those who are different than they are just because of those differences.
I believe in being loving, kind and compassionate whether one is religious or not, whether one believes the same as another or not. We are here to make the world better than we found it. We are in a world of people who are different than we are to learn to work together with them, to accept them, to love them. I believe the world would not be filled with diversity in everything if we were not meant to learn to live in peace with that diversity.
I think those who are religious need to be more accepting of those who are different than them or those who believe differently than they do.
I think the religious world and the secular world need to find ways to work together, with kindness, love and compassion for one another.
In this country and in this world. Love, kindness and compassion must be the way or we are going to lose and or destroy everything we believe in.
The religious people I have admired most are the quiet ones who use their faith as a buttress, for themselves and others, rather than as a cudgel demanding submission.
It's funny - I used the exact same phrase in my latest post - that those who celebrate death as part of a Divine plan have "lost the plot" in focusing on their interpretation of prophecy (talking about the Middle East). I think religious people get it wrong when assuming they understand all there is to know about that which is Infinite. I've talked to hundreds of people about their personal spirituality through my Spiritual Geography workshops and sessions. The common factor, as you know and so eloquently describe, is love - whether the person finds that love in religion, in nature, or exploring more "woo" aspects of spirituality. There's always more we don't know than what we do, but Love is the common thread.
Amen. Read your book a couple years ago I think and thought yeah this is right. The realty is that Jesus is far too radical (gets at the root of things) than a lot of current religious people are comfortable with. I once told a group that Jesus is woke and that is a fact. I often believe that if Jesus walked into a lot of our churches today, he would be quickly escorted out. Jesus loves all of us and if Jesus does not challenge our myopia then we do not see him clearly. Thanks John for having the courage to say what needs to be said.
A+ John
Love wins
John - I do believe that if we follow Jesus' guidelines, including the Beatitudes, we will be on the right track. However, if those who profess to be followers of Jesus and espouse violence, exclusion, demonize others, lie,cheat, and steal then they're on the wrong track.
Historically I believe there have been more wars over religious beliefs than any other cause and I have never felt comfortable in organized religious environments. I prefer to have my own personal relationship with the
G-d of my understanding without anyone else dictating to me what that should feel like or look like for me or for anyone else. Most of the world religions I have briefly studied basically try to teach the same moral principles. Sadly, some of them seem to have gotten twisted to fit political ideology and are reverting back to extremism. If Jesus showed up now and tried to reason with ICE he would be deported in a heartbeat without any papers or way to help him. How many Angels are out there right now having that happen to them. Yes, I do believe that Angels walk amongst us.
I come at this set of issues from the point of view of Process Theology, which is rooted in the cosmology of Alfred North Whitehead's Process Philosophy. One of the striking features of the theology is that, for humans (and likely a great many other animal species) God's aim is persuasive, a lure, but is not controlling. For other levels of reality, where we assume continuity of solid features, God's aim is controlling. (The basic unit of reality is what he calls an actual occasion & they range from simple, like our body or a rock, to complex, such as our psyche.) We have a measure of free will and God is not trying to teach anything by punishing us. God is fully inclusive, regardless of any conditions. The fundamental principle of the universe is creativity which characterizes all of reality including God. The nice thing about Whitehead and Process Philosophy is that ANW was one of the leading mathematicians and understood Einsteins' theory of relativity. Process Thought (including any theology developed using his cosmology) seeks to cover all of reality, including what we know from classical physics and science in general but also more difficult topics such as non-mediated causality.
BTW, I once had an extended conversation with a once-religious man who was, I decided, a born-again atheist. When I told him that the God he didn't believe in, he accused me of playing word games; he could not accept that God meant anything except the iron-fisted God waiting to either punish us or reward us with unlimited gifts (if we but believe hard enough). God is not a Superman.
My personal religion seems to be founded on Micah 6:8 about humility, which has been a very useful North Star in determining what's important and what's less so.