I often find myself in a now-familiar spot with Trump supporters I know: hopelessly stuck in an unnavigable impasse on our respective paths, unable to find a way forward.
I haven't tolerated Trump talk around me for a very long time - well before he won the White House the first time. He nearly wrecked NYC and that I do not forgive ...ever. His racist tendencies were on full display and his womanizing was legendary. If you can lionize a person like that you don't enter my house or my space.
Oh boy! I ended up leaving a Facebook group for caretakers of elderly parents. It’s traditionally been very compassionate and supportive group, but one poster commented on her concerns about what’s happening with Social Security and she’s afraid that her mom will lose Social Security and Medicare and because of the policies of Trump and musk.
And I could not believe the vitriol of the comments that proceeded. The first comment just said “take your lies somewhere else!” no curiosity no attempt to understand not even any alternate facts. Just “take your lies somewhere else.”
And and then I accidentally read comments on a political podcast here in Georgia about Medicaid being in danger and the first comment I saw there was the brilliant and witty “ horse shit” . No alternative thoughts, no questions, no curiosity.
So yeah, how do you agree to disagree with horse shit and take your lies somewhere else?
I too, have found great frustration in Social Media comments. Facebook is the only one I'm on and I try to engage with those that have different views than myself, asking questions, and wanting them to defend their position. I almost always get comments like you have heard or my attempt at dialog is just ignored. I've unfortunately had to delete friends since there's no use in trying for any useful conversation.
That is why I left Facebook. It wasn't any fun anymore, just like Xitter. I lost contact with many dear friends. I'm only on Substack and BlueSky now. Too many people in my life revealed themselves to be nothing like I had thought.
I know! It’s like they have become possessed! It’s very alarming. I can see why trump targeted Evangelicals. They will follow and defend blindly. They will vote against their best self interest because their “reward” will come through suffering. I honestly believe maga are the current day pilgrims who walked the Camino on their knees to prove this worthiness through pain and suffering.
In addition to those who parrot or share 47's beliefs, I find those who claim that they aren't interested in politics, and therefore didn't vote, equally hard to engage with. Even now, as our system of democracy is being torn down brick by brick, they go about their lives and take umbrage at the suggestion that they should be concerned. I have to conclude that many of them believe as the outspoken MAGAs do, but do not want to claim it publicly. Their lack of moral repulsion is more than I can bear. Thank you for this piece. I appreciate your directness in confronting the issues of the day and how they relate to human relationships.
Lindy - Seems to me those who "don't pay attention to politics" are showing their privilege. As John so rightly notes, those with a voice in our society need to speak up for those who cannot - or, now, could be disappeared by the despot if they did speak up. Shame on those with privilege who guard it for themselves with disregard for those who are oppressed. Shame on them. "I don't pay attention to politics means you, or those you love, or those you care about, are not (yet) threatened.
I agree. If I was to re establish communication or attend events with my two sisters and a brother who voted for the orange felon, I would HAVE to make my opinion known. I could not just talk about mundane, trivial things, and ignore the elephant in the room. That would feel like a betrayal of all the people who are suffering for their refusal to look at facts,and justify and pardon everything the orange did/does or said/says. This must be how people felt after the Civil War, if they had family or friends on both sides. How to heal? I don't see the way. I won't compromise my position. It is definitely hypocritical for them to say their are Christians, but then not see how un-Christian the nazi/fascist/dictator/oligarch/king wanna be is.
THIS!!!! John, this is simply masterful. Beautifully spoken and articulates my feelings so well. I cannot agree to disagree, either, and am tired of being encouraged to "understand" them and their so-called reasons. Disagreeing about solutions means you agree on the fundamental problem to begin with, you don't deny it (i.e., climate change). You are correct. It is a now a deep moral and ethical issue. What is happening is evil. Keep saying this.
Kim G- it’s so maddening that people keep saying oh try to engage and try to understand when you’re constantly met with ridicule and contempt. Is anybody telling the Maga that they need to understand and listen to the other side? no!
I keep wondering how the NYT and other legacy media can send squads of reporters to the heartland to interview Trump supporters and groups of discontented young men , but can't be bothered to interview women who are denied healthcare and whose lives are at risk because of states like Texas and Idaho, or interview members of the LGBTQ+community who will be in jeopardy.
For me, the breach between my MAGA friends and family will likely never heal. They've shown me that their moral compasses no longer point anywhere I want to go. Inside those people, in spite of what I had thought, lies darkness. One of our daughters has turned to what I've started calling the "Dark Side" (like Star Wars). We taught her differently.
Among the many other difficulties I have dealt with since Trump came on the scene, was trying to understand and wrap my head around some of my friends and family beliefs. I have always looked up to my older siblings, thought they were kind, reasonable, accepting, intelligent human beings. So it was not easy to have to accept, that underneath, well more out front now, they are bigoted, racist, misogynistic people, who are more than willing to follow a falsehood, to not investigate and look at what is really happening, even when clear evidence was placed in front of them. To only listen to one news source and take what they say as gospel. To vote only one way because they always have. And to defend the actions of an evil vile person, because they say yes he is bad but the alternative was worse. To have to accept the fact that they are the types of people who WOULD drink the koolaid only because of what they are being told or because they are too afraid to admit they are WRONG! This has been painful, and I don't have the heart to disown them. In a way I feel like that would be another win for Trump and I cannot let him destroy my family. But they do know how I feel and I must admit our relationships are not what they were. In a way I guess I'm fortunate that most of them now are spread around the country so we do not see each other often. My hope is that we can someday repair the damage done, but it will probably not come until I hear "I was wrong".
Man, I've really struggled with this. Many people I respect and follow say now is not the time to retreat, we must engage, argue, debate, march, write letters, etc. I have a hard time finding the energy and mental strength to constantly be fighting. John tells me that it's alright to care for myself and find peace. Long walks while listening to Buddhist teachings brings that peace I seek.
Yes, I think that’s good advice. We’ve been engaging arguing, debating marching writing letters for eight years. I think it’s time to recharge and change our tactics. I’m not exactly sure what that looks like though.
I am so much in agreement with this statement. Those who cannot see the chasm between mere differences of opinion and the rights of existence, of the acknowledgement of the personhood of grown humans, are being willfully ignorant. I cannot excuse or even accept that in the people around me. I can hope and pray they find the light, but they will not drag me into that dark world of retribution and deliberate cruelty while I do so.
I’m still working out the yin yang of these feelings for myself. I’m in complete alignment with everything you’ve voiced here and we have stopped socializing with those we know supported the end to our democracy or didn’t vote. On the other hand trying to sort out the feelings of the community work we’re getting involved in and understanding how when we are pulling together to serve our community there are no red hats or blue hats…just humans trying to help each other out. And realizing that when “they” keep us divided- “they” win. So this is where discernment has to play a role in all of this.As well as healthy boundaries. Thank you John 🙏🏻
Discernment and healthy boundaries are increasingly difficult for me. Evolving Fascism presents uncharted waters for our country and our generation. It's NOT across the ocean, it's NOT impending, it's here. Uncharted waters for me, these online discussions help. Thanks all !
I couldn’t agree more. There is no reasoning with maga. In a way, I feel sorry for them, but most of them are so intolerable that patience and sympathy are lost on them.
I haven't tolerated Trump talk around me for a very long time - well before he won the White House the first time. He nearly wrecked NYC and that I do not forgive ...ever. His racist tendencies were on full display and his womanizing was legendary. If you can lionize a person like that you don't enter my house or my space.
Oh boy! I ended up leaving a Facebook group for caretakers of elderly parents. It’s traditionally been very compassionate and supportive group, but one poster commented on her concerns about what’s happening with Social Security and she’s afraid that her mom will lose Social Security and Medicare and because of the policies of Trump and musk.
And I could not believe the vitriol of the comments that proceeded. The first comment just said “take your lies somewhere else!” no curiosity no attempt to understand not even any alternate facts. Just “take your lies somewhere else.”
And and then I accidentally read comments on a political podcast here in Georgia about Medicaid being in danger and the first comment I saw there was the brilliant and witty “ horse shit” . No alternative thoughts, no questions, no curiosity.
So yeah, how do you agree to disagree with horse shit and take your lies somewhere else?
You don't. You walk away.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I too, have found great frustration in Social Media comments. Facebook is the only one I'm on and I try to engage with those that have different views than myself, asking questions, and wanting them to defend their position. I almost always get comments like you have heard or my attempt at dialog is just ignored. I've unfortunately had to delete friends since there's no use in trying for any useful conversation.
That is why I left Facebook. It wasn't any fun anymore, just like Xitter. I lost contact with many dear friends. I'm only on Substack and BlueSky now. Too many people in my life revealed themselves to be nothing like I had thought.
It feels so hurtful when a child you’ve raised goes over to the dark side.
JennSH- i’m so sorry. My heart goes out to you.
I know! It’s like they have become possessed! It’s very alarming. I can see why trump targeted Evangelicals. They will follow and defend blindly. They will vote against their best self interest because their “reward” will come through suffering. I honestly believe maga are the current day pilgrims who walked the Camino on their knees to prove this worthiness through pain and suffering.
Sadly, I have had the same experience. In social media and with immediate family. I no longer have a relationship with my sister.
In addition to those who parrot or share 47's beliefs, I find those who claim that they aren't interested in politics, and therefore didn't vote, equally hard to engage with. Even now, as our system of democracy is being torn down brick by brick, they go about their lives and take umbrage at the suggestion that they should be concerned. I have to conclude that many of them believe as the outspoken MAGAs do, but do not want to claim it publicly. Their lack of moral repulsion is more than I can bear. Thank you for this piece. I appreciate your directness in confronting the issues of the day and how they relate to human relationships.
Lindy - Seems to me those who "don't pay attention to politics" are showing their privilege. As John so rightly notes, those with a voice in our society need to speak up for those who cannot - or, now, could be disappeared by the despot if they did speak up. Shame on those with privilege who guard it for themselves with disregard for those who are oppressed. Shame on them. "I don't pay attention to politics means you, or those you love, or those you care about, are not (yet) threatened.
I saw a poll of non-voters and 83% said they were dissatisfied with how things are going. My head exploded.
I agree. If I was to re establish communication or attend events with my two sisters and a brother who voted for the orange felon, I would HAVE to make my opinion known. I could not just talk about mundane, trivial things, and ignore the elephant in the room. That would feel like a betrayal of all the people who are suffering for their refusal to look at facts,and justify and pardon everything the orange did/does or said/says. This must be how people felt after the Civil War, if they had family or friends on both sides. How to heal? I don't see the way. I won't compromise my position. It is definitely hypocritical for them to say their are Christians, but then not see how un-Christian the nazi/fascist/dictator/oligarch/king wanna be is.
I always wondered why I was required to maintain a relationship with people I neither like nor respect because my parents had sex more than once.
THIS!!!! John, this is simply masterful. Beautifully spoken and articulates my feelings so well. I cannot agree to disagree, either, and am tired of being encouraged to "understand" them and their so-called reasons. Disagreeing about solutions means you agree on the fundamental problem to begin with, you don't deny it (i.e., climate change). You are correct. It is a now a deep moral and ethical issue. What is happening is evil. Keep saying this.
Kim G- it’s so maddening that people keep saying oh try to engage and try to understand when you’re constantly met with ridicule and contempt. Is anybody telling the Maga that they need to understand and listen to the other side? no!
I keep wondering how the NYT and other legacy media can send squads of reporters to the heartland to interview Trump supporters and groups of discontented young men , but can't be bothered to interview women who are denied healthcare and whose lives are at risk because of states like Texas and Idaho, or interview members of the LGBTQ+community who will be in jeopardy.
Hear Hear !
Retired OBGYN in Idaho
For me, the breach between my MAGA friends and family will likely never heal. They've shown me that their moral compasses no longer point anywhere I want to go. Inside those people, in spite of what I had thought, lies darkness. One of our daughters has turned to what I've started calling the "Dark Side" (like Star Wars). We taught her differently.
100 yet again! Keep ‘em coming. The art of words meets the power of truth.
Among the many other difficulties I have dealt with since Trump came on the scene, was trying to understand and wrap my head around some of my friends and family beliefs. I have always looked up to my older siblings, thought they were kind, reasonable, accepting, intelligent human beings. So it was not easy to have to accept, that underneath, well more out front now, they are bigoted, racist, misogynistic people, who are more than willing to follow a falsehood, to not investigate and look at what is really happening, even when clear evidence was placed in front of them. To only listen to one news source and take what they say as gospel. To vote only one way because they always have. And to defend the actions of an evil vile person, because they say yes he is bad but the alternative was worse. To have to accept the fact that they are the types of people who WOULD drink the koolaid only because of what they are being told or because they are too afraid to admit they are WRONG! This has been painful, and I don't have the heart to disown them. In a way I feel like that would be another win for Trump and I cannot let him destroy my family. But they do know how I feel and I must admit our relationships are not what they were. In a way I guess I'm fortunate that most of them now are spread around the country so we do not see each other often. My hope is that we can someday repair the damage done, but it will probably not come until I hear "I was wrong".
Man, I've really struggled with this. Many people I respect and follow say now is not the time to retreat, we must engage, argue, debate, march, write letters, etc. I have a hard time finding the energy and mental strength to constantly be fighting. John tells me that it's alright to care for myself and find peace. Long walks while listening to Buddhist teachings brings that peace I seek.
Yes, I think that’s good advice. We’ve been engaging arguing, debating marching writing letters for eight years. I think it’s time to recharge and change our tactics. I’m not exactly sure what that looks like though.
This moment MATTERS!! Lead with love and distance yourself from people who are "vexations to your spirit". (Borrowed the thought from the Desiderata).
I am so much in agreement with this statement. Those who cannot see the chasm between mere differences of opinion and the rights of existence, of the acknowledgement of the personhood of grown humans, are being willfully ignorant. I cannot excuse or even accept that in the people around me. I can hope and pray they find the light, but they will not drag me into that dark world of retribution and deliberate cruelty while I do so.
I’m still working out the yin yang of these feelings for myself. I’m in complete alignment with everything you’ve voiced here and we have stopped socializing with those we know supported the end to our democracy or didn’t vote. On the other hand trying to sort out the feelings of the community work we’re getting involved in and understanding how when we are pulling together to serve our community there are no red hats or blue hats…just humans trying to help each other out. And realizing that when “they” keep us divided- “they” win. So this is where discernment has to play a role in all of this.As well as healthy boundaries. Thank you John 🙏🏻
Discernment and healthy boundaries are increasingly difficult for me. Evolving Fascism presents uncharted waters for our country and our generation. It's NOT across the ocean, it's NOT impending, it's here. Uncharted waters for me, these online discussions help. Thanks all !
Yes Mary. Some days it’s much more difficult than others.
I couldn’t agree more. There is no reasoning with maga. In a way, I feel sorry for them, but most of them are so intolerable that patience and sympathy are lost on them.
Intolerable seems too mild, an existential danger to humanity
We can agree to disagree whether pineapple belongs on pizza. We cannot do that on human rights.
Fucking A. Right there with you.